alamb - Thanks for the clarification on shunning. It seemed like Barb was really focused on being cast into darkness more than she was being separated from family.
Doubting Bro
JoinedPosts by Doubting Bro
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57
Big Love - temple scene and Barb's excommunication
by undercover inwho saw big love last night?.
...and here i thought jws were fucked up.... the whole temple thing was just surreal.
i've always liked barber's adagio, but that music made it even creepier.... jws got nuthin on their temples and ceremonies.... jws are cult lite compared to that shit.... but.... the disciplinary meeting that barb went to with the elders...how deja vu was that?
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57
Big Love - temple scene and Barb's excommunication
by undercover inwho saw big love last night?.
...and here i thought jws were fucked up.... the whole temple thing was just surreal.
i've always liked barber's adagio, but that music made it even creepier.... jws got nuthin on their temples and ceremonies.... jws are cult lite compared to that shit.... but.... the disciplinary meeting that barb went to with the elders...how deja vu was that?
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Doubting Bro
Hang on sport (humble). First, Big Love is dealing with Mormons, not JWs. However, as has been discussed numerous times, there are similarities. Certainly the excommunication/disfellowshipping practice is similar. Being cut off forever from family is exactly the same. The only difference that I've noted is the everlasting cutting off is also in the afterlife (heaven) with the one being cut off cast into eternal darkness as opposed to the JW view of not being resurrected in paradise on earth. The net result is the same.
Secondly, I found the scene moving in that it was very similar to a judicial committee meeting. BTW - I'm still active and have set on the other side of the table from Barb many times. The question about a recording device is standard. I've never seen bags removed but in a high profile case such as the one depicted, I could see that happening. Also, I think there were 5 leaders there as opposed to the standard JC of 3. Again, in high profile cases, JCs don't have to be limited to 3 (see the Flock book for details). Finally, Barb was able to bring a witness to take notes. This is NOT allowed unless the person facing the JC is a minor, then the parent is allowed to sit in, according to the rules. I've heard cases of elders not following the rules regarding this.
The anxiety that the character showed is dead on. She was given a chance to repent which she said no to. She knew the axe was going to fall which of course it did. But, she did what she tought was right despite the consequences. Not saying I'm agreeing with her stance, just that at least she followed her convictions as did the committee however misguided both are.
Honestly, I felt deep shame in having ever participated in JCs. To watch the pain and to think about the pain others have gone through was tough. My heart goes out to all who have had to endure this type of treatment.
Edited - FM am I correct about shunning on the Mormon side?
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E'noch - What happened?
by elder-schmelder inbible story book:.
one day jehovah god had e noch tell the people something they did not want to hear.
it was this: god is someday going to destroy all the bad people.
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Doubting Bro
Marking for later, love it.
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Nephilim . Please educate me the best ya can.
by lurk3r insigh.
i cannot believe how much the society fudges some thing.
it's starting to get me more than i thought it would.
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Doubting Bro
Marking this for future reading.
Thanks Leolaia - this is great stuff.
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The mancession.
by BurnTheShips inaccording to friday's bls report (table a-1, household data), the u.s. economy has lost 4.464 million jobs since dec. 2007. further analysis shows that 78% of the job losses (3.483 million) were jobs held by males, and 22% of the jobs lost (981,000) were jobs held by females (see top chart above).
of the 351,000 decline in february employment (household data), 90% of the job losses were male jobs (315,000), compared to a 37,000 job loss for females (10% of total).. .
further, the february unemployment rate for men was 8.8% vs. 7.3% for women, as the 1.5% male-female gap narrowed just slightly from the all-time historical record male-female jobless rate gap of 1.6% in january.
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Doubting Bro
That was funny. Just goes to show that you can use statistics to make any point you want.
BTW, my wife works WAY harder than I ever have.
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Another JW Elder Claiming Clergy Privilage in Court Case
by jamiebowers injws brag that they have no clergy, yet this elder is claiming clergy privilege in a murder case:.
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http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/pe_news_local_s_clergy09.3c06480.html.
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Doubting Bro
Bluesbrother - thanks for the quotes. Interesting how they really used to highlight this lack of "clergy" but how that particular wording has sort of disappeared from their material. Probably because they want the flexibility to use penitent-clergy privilege.
Sir82 - I wasn't really thinking about the CO/DOs but you're right, they are paid. Local elders, obviously are strictly volunteer. Also, your point about the sheparding calls is dead on. Why on earth would he go alone?
If he went alone, wouldn't privilege hold? Or would the fact that the elder was speaking to both husband and wife negate privilege? If he followed the rules and went with another elder (which in a situation with obvious volitility you would think he naturally would want to do), then this judge has already ruled that privilege is thrown out.
Clearly, the WTS legal department is involved here and wants to avoid at all costs the elder having to testify to protect their own assets. If Sir82s senario is close to what happened, I could see the WTS having some liability for pastorial malpractice.
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Another JW Elder Claiming Clergy Privilage in Court Case
by jamiebowers injws brag that they have no clergy, yet this elder is claiming clergy privilege in a murder case:.
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http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/pe_news_local_s_clergy09.3c06480.html.
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Doubting Bro
They do it when it suits their interests . For several years, I was on a Patient Visitation Group that was assigned to visit sick JWs in a particular hospital. Each week, a different person was assigned to go to the hospital and see if there was anyone who said they were a JW and wanted to be visited by a minister. Actually, this was a Catholic hospital and the father that was over ministerial affairs (or whatever they called the office that coordinated ministerial visits) was a super nice guy. Only elders were permitted to be part of the PVGs because from a legal point of view, they are JW clergy.
I was given a card that identified me as approved clergy and a clergy parking pass. Of course, I didn't use the pass because it made me feel strange to get perferred parking. But, I still have the card and pass!
My point is that to say JWs don't have clergy is incorrect. To say they don't have a PAID clergy is probably correct and that's how I seen most JWs refer to the elders/COs/DOs in talks. It would be interesting to see some WT quotes and see if those refer to just clergy or paid clergy.
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Doubting Bro
"The Truth"
"new light"
"true Christians"
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Guys how old were you when appointed anything???
by oompa ini was 19, a pioneer, and a mini-serve.......first literature, then territory, and account servant at 21.....of course a janitor/window washer too (not that there is anything wrong with that!...it paid well!
).....i turned down elder as i am very non-judgemental....but almost did it so i could let everyone off in committees......geeze how i wish i had been in in college gettin laid............oompaundercover inspired this thread btw........
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Doubting Bro
Baptised- 17
MS - 21
Elder - 29
Resigned as an elder - 38
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Could a single decision/mistake bring down watchtower
by badboy inwith decisions by bankers etc bringing down financial systems, other situations decisions have had wie ranging consequences makes one wonder if a single decision could bring things down.
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Doubting Bro
OTWO - I agree with your assessment. The single worse decision the GB has made was switching to voluntary donations. Had they not done that, their cash flow position would likely be much better than it is today. The error wasn't apparent at first, but now going on 20 years later - the chickens have come home to roost.
As far as doctrine goes, it probably doesn't really matter what they do. If they didn't blow up after the 1975 fiasco, I'm not sure that any doctrinal change could bring them down. The pedo suits can likely be handled and I'm still of the opinion that the rumored restructuring of the CO position and any other structural changes they make are a response to that. Maybe they can get nailed on blood, but even if they dropped the blood policy tomorrow, I really don't see the courts getting involved in a religious dispute. So, I don't see a flood of sucessful lawsuits coming down the pike.
The economic problems we're currently facing must be killing the WTS which was apparently already struggling with finances. But, even if the money runs out, they could survive as a religion, just a smaller one without book publishing which is a dying business anyway.
I think they're biggest problem is retention of the young and an overall lack of leadership. We're probably close to their peak and then we'll see a small but steady decline.